I recommended this class to a friend of mine, she applied, but the day of acceptance came and went and she never even got a rejection email. I emailed Ned and never heard back either. It seems that all they managed to do was add her to their mailing list. So I cannot recommend them anymore for their way of dealing with applicants. Simply not responding is rude and unprofessional.
This is not uncommon. Though this is a great time to mention that YC sends pretty good rejection letters (we see these every batch, e.g. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3180243):
We're sorry to say we couldn't accept your proposal for funding. Please don't take it personally. The applications we receive get better every funding cycle, and since there's a limit on the number of startups we can interview in person, we had to turn away a lot of genuinely promising groups.
Another reason you shouldn't take this personally is that we know we make lots of mistakes. It's alarming how often the last group to make it over the threshold for interviews ends up being one that we fund. That means there are surely other good groups that fall just below the threshold and that we miss even interviewing.
We're trying to get better at this, but the hard limit on the number of interviews means it's practically certain that groups we rejected will go on to create successful startups. If you do, we'd appreciate it if you'd send us an email telling us about it; we want to learn from our mistakes.
This should have been an ASK HN question: But I am wondering how a curriculum like this could possible place a candidate into Apple, eBay, Twilio, or Box?
I thought the interview process for those companies involve low-level, tough algorithm/data structure problems, which requires an intensive college education or participation in TopCoder, CoderChef... -- not just how many shiny toys you can play with (iOS, HTML, JS, CSS, ruby...)
It would be interesting to see statistics on those candidates being placed into those top companies
We're not trying to replicate or replace a traditional four-year CS program. Over 500+ hours, working full-time, in pairs, and with constant access to instructors, students have rapidly built skill and experience with programming. Ultimately, that's what I think employers are looking for in junior devs.
We have also spent considerable time reviewing traditional CS topics like algorithms and data structures.
We're a couple weeks away from hiring day, but companies including Apple, airbnb, Lytro and Twilio have signed up. These companies are making the investment to send senior engineers to hiring day; they don't do this lightly.
It's awesome that you are able to get attentions from those top-level companies like those. I did take a look at the curriculum and you do in fact have some data structure/algorithm classes.
It would you be nice if you can provide us with candidates' interview experiences and outcome -- just to provide a roadmap for future candidates
It looks like the student pays you 12.5% of their first year's salary. Normally wouldn't the hiring company pay?
If I'm reading it right -- and I might not be -- how is that different than a student loan? Wouldn't that just be 12.5% off the top of their first year's salary? It's not like a potential employer would offer 12.5% more just because you're charging the student.
You've already run a few iOS classes, too. Can you talk about outcomes?
Is that a problem, underpricing the competition if the market bears it? Dev Bootcamp's cost has risen meteorically since they first opened their doors in February of this year. It is now roughly the same cost as a year's tuition at a UC. Apples to oranges, sure, but it gives the number some perspective.
The difference in the pricing model here is that you don't have to pay it back should things go pear-shaped after the course. Obviously, it's in their interest to secure 100% placement, but at least it's not a financial burden on a student if it doesn't work out. This is an important consideration for some people: these bootcamps are sometimes a last resort for people jump starting a new career after long bouts of unemployment in the current economy. As good as any of these schools are, the risk of dedicating months to a program and taking on additional debt with no guarantee of a job is a tough thing to swallow.
Not only has Dev Bootcamp's cost risen, they're getting super selective about who they let in the program. The other huge issue would be for people who don't live in SF. On their website they say they work with the best recruiters in SF who are "waiting for you to graduate.". Yeah, so if I'm not from SF, then what are my odds of getting in? Probably slim to none.
Regarding the issue of Dev Bootcamp and international students, I live and work in London England and I'm in the Fall cohort. So I can categorically confirm that they do accept international students.
Just wanted to clear that point up.
I find the matter of fact tone of your comment interesting. From what are you basing "they're getting super selective about who they let in the program". Our interview structure and selection criteria has remained the same for a long time, only just now is that changing and by no means is it becoming more selective.
We also don't discriminate based on location, gender, etc.
I've read somewhere that Dev Bootcamp applications for future sessions is now 1000+ for future cohorts. Does everyone have a chance at an interview, or are there specific qualities you look for in an application before giving the interview 'greenlight'?
To my mind, we're not underpricing Dev Bootcamp. Our focus in pricing is to change the risk equation for students. We want to lower the barrier to entry for the tech jobs market. We also want students to know that we are really committed/invested in them.
The big difference from student loans: students only pay us if the course actually works :-)
Our first batch students are just beginning their final projects. You can check out what they have to say here: http://appacademy.io/alumni
curious, what determines if the course does not work? Is there a time period that students have to get jobs post-course that determines if the student does not have to pay?
There will be some time period, but it will vary from student to student. We'll discuss what makes sense for each student as part of the application process.
We think the incentives align better with this model. We want our students to take the best job for them, regardless of whether the company is paying recruiting fees.
As far as recruiting fees go, when employers make a decision on salaries, they look at the total employee cost. If the employer needs to pay a recruiting fee, that goes into the cost. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, etc, etc. :-)
Wouldn't that 12.5% be a business expense deductible against the gross income anyway? Ask a tax expert, but these costs are "business expenses" and should be deductible.
Why do you care so much that the student has to pay? And why insist that it's just a cheaper bootcamp? That plus the fact that your account was created an hour ago makes your negativity suspicious. Sorry if I'm wrong.
It's just unorthodox, is all. It also sets up a strange dynamic if a student can't or won't pay.
It would be even lower risk for the student if the hiring company paid, which is a standard practice -- referral fees as a percentage of the referral's first-year salary.
If you don't find a job, you don't pay. And you pay in installments over 6 months (ie, 2% of your annual salary per month). This does not seem crazy. At all.
I'll agree it's so crazy its brilliant! I have been trying to self train and make it into mobile platforms for over a year now and its not as easy or speedy as I originally expected. I have very little programming experience and am looking for a more specific career change from IT break fix to mobile dev. I think this model is the perfect way out of the current long term schooling or upfront high cost boot camp that may or may not deliver. Experience is the key and this style of class seems to have lots of hands on experience. It's the perfect mix of intense focus as far as I can tell.
Competing with, yes. I'd say they are differently pricing more than underpricing. I've got friends I've been trying to get on the Rails developer career path and something like this is great for them when they don't even have $1000 cash for something that just might not work out for them.
telephonic : This account was obviously created specifically for the purpose of commenting on this thread. Please be a little more up front about who you are and what your intentions might be.
Hi there, this sounds incredibly effective and I know a number of very talented friends who'd be interested. I briefly read through the description but couldn't find the answers to the following questions:
1. How are accommodations handled? Do we have to arrange that on our own or are they provided?
2. Do you help with visas? My friends are Canadian so not sure whether they can stay for 9 weeks in the USA without a student visa.
3. Does the entrepreneur lesson plan differ at all from the regular employment plan? Or are you in the same plan and just pay differently?
Thanks in advance for your help, phenomenal company and vision.
Hi! Thanks for the kind words! They mean a lot to us.
1. We help you arrange housing by connecting you to other App Academy students moving to SF, as well as by connecting you to local hacker/startup houses, but ultimately accommodation is the responsibility of the student.
2. We have accepted international students in the past, and will continue to do so. However, we unfortunately don't have the resources to help you with visas.
3. The only difference for entrepreneurs is the payment plan.
I'm not sure if you already knew this but you don't need a student visa to live in the US for 9-12 weeks. You can apply for a B1 visa (business/visitor category). Technically you are only learning and not working for wages. Once you land a job offer you can get a H1B visa and that's a different story. You'll need an invitation letter for B1 visa and am pretty sure the guys at appacademy will furnish you one if you are selected. Hope this helps.
I find it a bit weird that you have shifted from iOS to Rails given:
1) There is an established rails bootcamp in the area (Dev Bootcamp) while there are very few iOS bootcamps anywhere
2) Before yesterday, the website was taking applications for iOS classes
3) The only batch of students you've had go through your program were iOS students and haven't been placed yet
Makes it a bit hard to judge the quality of the program since you've wiped the slate clean by changing technologies before your first batch has finished. It's a bit hard to gauge your student comments since they were trained on different technologies and haven't even been placed yet.
The demand for both Rails and iOS devs in SF is huge, the market is nowhere near saturated. It's really the opposite: as Devbootcamp gains success, the applicant and recruiting company pools grow larger.
We taught Ruby/Rails for the first 3 weeks of the current iOS course; several of our alumni directly speak to their experiences learning Rails in their testimonials. That said, the most important (and hardest) concepts to learn through these programs are the fundamental skills of software development (how to model a real-world problem, how to design a solution, how to debug...). Those core, essential skills are common to both Rails and iOS, as well as any other software development work.
I visited these guys a couple weeks ago and played some 7 Wonders with some of them after class. It was a fun group and it was really neat to see how it's run.
I've been working pretty hard in improving my skills on my own via Coursera, Code School, etc... but this is way better. Pair programming and then chatting with all the other pairs working on the same thing looked like it was not only effective, but also motivational. It was a fun group to hang out with, too.
The organizer was even kind enough to share a few tidbits of advice for in in terms of learning materials, etc for me to pursue on my own.
How useful would this be to a non-software engineer with significant self-taught programming experience? I have programmed (mainly Python & Java, no Ruby/Rails and little web experience) for several years within the context of biomedical engineering and could probably teach myself the material, but this would provide some external discipline and, more importantly, make finding a job much easier (my resume and some other links are on my profile page, if anyone would like to hire me).
Your experience level sounds a lot like mine before I was accepted into the App Academy (I'm a student here right now). I'm not a software engineer either but I had been teaching myself to code in Python (with a Django framework) for about a year to a year and a half before applying.
It took me about 1 month here to cover the same amount of material that took me 1 year to cover on my own. Being self taught is great, but learning in a classroom full of equally motivated students guided by an incredible teacher is even better. If I get stuck, I can turn to any of my fellow students and they'll help me out. Likewise, I often learn the most by helping others get unstuck. And, of course, our instructor is always there to help us think about problems in new ways. He gives lectures daily and then for the rest of the day he helps us out in a more personal, one on one basis. His great skill is his ability to break down complicated ideas and present them in an easy to understand manner.
While I could learn all of this on my own, it's hard to overvalue the effect of learning in an accelerated environment like the App Academy provides.
I've actually been blogging daily about my experience at the App Academy. You can check that out here: http://krisallenfields.tumblr.com/
This is a fantastic idea. I wish I could go back in time when I was graduating high school and enroll in something like this. Would have saved me tens of thousands, and increased my earnings over lifetime by quite a large amount. Congrats.
I'm starting with Rails and this sounds like a great deal. The only problem is that I'm some 6500 miles away from SF. Anyhow, I like what you're doing and I wish you success.
My current family and financial situation is such that it'd be possible to move to SF for the course, but difficult (not quite impossible!) to stay for a job afterwards. Do any of the companies who have signed on to hire graduates allow remote workers and/or offer jobs at locations other than SF?
Can you guys partner up with a hotel/motel/apartment company/something? I'm on the east coast and would love to attend on one of the available dates but I have no clue about the sfbay area, apartments, etc other than craigslist of course. And craigslist on the East Coast can get weird lol
Am a fan of this fee/tuition structure over Dev Bootcamp's and know a girl in the current class - She built a grocery shopping/calorie counting app that blew me away within 3 weeks of the course. No prior programming knowledge or experience.. was impressive.
Hi, I applied to App Academy a little over 2 weeks ago before the curriculum change. Will this affect my application or should I still be expecting a decision? Thanks
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Many people who take our program have done some study on their own but now want a more immersive environment. Some already have projects that are pretty cool.
This looks interesting. I also really like the pricing, it definitely looks like it reduces risk for students. That said, what are the costs like for housing and other living expenses in S.F. for the two month period?
I really want to participate in one of these programs (App Academy, Hungry Academy, Hacker School, etc.) but location is a deal-breaker. Does anyone know of similar events in the Portland, OR area?
While not exactly what you're looking for, I believe a few of the Hungry Academy graduates will be relocating to Portland after graduation. So if (a big if perhaps) you can pull the 5 months away from the area for the class, you don't necessarily have to permanently relocate.
During the last HA round I noticed that LivingSocial has Portland offices, as do a few of the companies that App Academy works with (vmware springs to mind, was just there yesterday).
My problem is there is no way I can leave for a couple months to participate, it's just not possible in my situation. I truly believe that the immersive programs offered by these companies would work best for me - in ways that school or self-study don't - but location is a huge mitigating factor.
Any plans to open similar schools in other major metro areas like Los Angeles/Orange County, Las Vegas, Atlanta, etc.? I'm assuming the biggest obstacle is finding qualified instructors.
A program like this would be like Knewton online for GMAT training. They charge $500 per program and can't begin to charge $10k. The other point is that these programs are set up to find great people, teach them to code and then hook them up with a company looking for great people who can code (go figure).
The company that is going to win will set up courses like this in multiple cities, SF, NYC, Chicaco, etc. and build an online component.
I look forward to seeing what companies the alumni work for and project they build.
We do this type of online tutored program at http://www.railstutors.com. We focus on Ruby on Rails, with a less ambitious goal - instead of aiming to prepare you as a junior developer at twitter, we want to get you started, learned Rails and build your first app from ground up. We have a shorter duration of 4 weeks instead of 9.
There are a lot of challenges on how to teach effectively online, and we have certainly learned a ton over the past few months. We are graduating about 20~30 students now every month.
Bloc(http://www.bloc.io/) does exactly that. "This is perfect for someone who wants to enroll in something like Dev Bootcamp but can't because they don't live in San Francisco."
I'm part of their fall cohort that's about to start and so far it's been great.
Like the other commenter, I completely disagree. The reason these programs work is because they are in person with heavy accountability structures, rapid sharing of knowledge, and an amazing community building.
I honestly can't see any of these working nearly as well as the in person programs. You have to be involved, invested 9, 10, 11 hours a day. Your fellow students will pull you up if they see you slacking or not working hard enough. They'll help you when you're down.
