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pretty sure that if I ever started a company, I'd at least try to do it without any sort of formal management.

Valve does that:

    How could a 300-person company not have any formal 
    management? My observation is that it takes new hires 
    about six months before they fully accept that no one is 
    going to tell them what to do, that no manager is going 
    to give them a review, that there is no such thing as a 
    promotion or a job title or even a fixed role (although 
    there are generous raises and bonuses based on value to 
    the company, as assessed by peers). That it is their 
    responsibility, and theirs alone, to allocate the most 
    valuable resource in the company – their time – by 
    figuring out what it is that they can do that is most 
    valuable for the company, and then to go do it. That if 
    they decide that they should be doing something 
    different, there’s no manager to convince to let them 
    go; they just move their desk to the new group (the 
    desks are on wheels, with computers attached) and start 
    in on the new thing. (Obviously they should choose a 
    good point at which to do this, and coordinate with both 
    groups, but that’s common sense, not a rule, and isn’t 
    enforced in any way.) That everyone on a project team is 
    an individual contributor, doing coding, artwork, level 
    design, music, and so on, including the leads; there is 
    no such thing as a pure management or architect or 
    designer role. That any part of the company can change 
    direction instantly at any time, because there are no 
    managers to cling to their people and their territory, 
    no reorgs to plan, no budgets to work around. That there 
    are things that Gabe badly wants the company to do that 
    aren’t happening, because no one has signed up to do 
    them.
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/valve-how-i-got-here-w...


It's hilarious to see the exact opposite happen: an 80 person company with a multi-page visio org chart, six departments, seven VPs, five pages of expense report rules and regulations, meetings scheduled to plan when to schedule other meetings, and nobody listens to the people who know what to do next because the visionary VC-installed-CEO is Touched By God and can't be questioned even as the company nose dives into obsolescence.


I worked for a startup that was like this but with a grand total of five employees. It did not sit well with me.


> an 80 person company with a multi-page visio org chart, six departments, seven VPs

Pfft. I once worked at a place with 77 employees and 14 VPs. How we didn't wind up taking over the tech world still mystifies me.


Yup, I worked somewhere like that. All the top folks had come from the finance world and were so eager to duplicate the perfect organizational structure of a multinational financial corporation.

I didn't work there long.


Joined a startup with 4 founding C-levels and 2 employees. Good times.


Sounds like a government contractor.


Surely youre joking


I'm pretty sure I've worked at this company. Haha


Please, name the name.


Valve has an amazing culture, but I'm not sure it would scale to a 50,000 person company. Valve seems to operate as a tribe and there's a limit on how huge those can get.

Microsoft seems to be run like a prison camp.


> Valve has an amazing culture, but I'm not sure it would scale to a 50,000 person company

This reminds me of just a few years ago when I was arguing with someone about this, when 37signals was in their infancy and were kinda trucking along with the same 'bossless' philosophy. I was trying to show that it could be successful and the person hacked me off at the knees by saying "come talk to me when they get to 100 employees" ... well Github and Valve seems to be doing just fine with that philosophy ... but now the goalposts have suddenly shifted.

I wonder if they get to 50,000 people (how many companies even have this many people anyway?) if somebody isn't going to pop up and go "50k people? pffffft ... come get me when they have 200,000 employees!"


There's a number of companies with that many, particularly if you do manufacturing in addition to tech.

Intel - 100,100

Dell - 110,000

HP - 349,600

Google - 54,604

Microsoft - 90,000

Apple - 60,400 (I don't know what fraction is retail sales)

Numbers from Wikipedia, which I assume are from the annual reports these companies put out.


IBM - 433,362


I think if you're very picky about having just the right people at the "bottom", and just the right people/person at the "top" (because even in Valve's supposedly flat hierarchy there's still someone on top: Gabe) then it can go up quite aways. But yes, it's probably inevitable that it eventually fails and devolves into department, fiefdoms, politics, etc. You can push it out but can't put if off forever. But you know what? That's not necessarily a bad thing. There are plenty of companies that can be viable and successful with 5-100 employees. Not everything has to be a megacorp.


According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbars_number Valve should already be two tribes.

You have probably heard about Gore-Tex solution—build plants with 150 workplaces.



> I'm not sure it would scale to a 50,000 person company.

Split the company into a bunch of mini-companies, don't get beyond "the limit".

Microsoft used to be a pretty flat organization back in the days, depth of the management layer is one of the things MS employees mocked at IBM in the 80s and 90s. It was already a pretty big company back then.

BTW, MS's headcount is closer to 90k than 50k these days.


It's a hell of a lot bigger than that when you include vendors...


The vendors are intentionally not a part of MS, because they're lower margin operations.


Then you need a special division to coordinate the anticompetitive behavior.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book)

"Among many 'radical' policies, Semler let his employees set their own hours, design their workplace, choose their own IT, share all information and have no secrets. Every six months bosses are evaluated by their subordinates and the results are posted. Semco has a policy of complete internal financial openness, even teaching factory workers how to read accounts so they can understand the company's books. Salaries are public information unless the employee requests they not be published. In addition, all employees can set their own salary."

As of 2003, they had 3000 employees and was growing at 40% a year. No idea how they're doing now.


But what's the advantage of a company with 50k employees? Why not have several smaller companies that collaborate?

Microsoft could easily be broken into several smaller companies.


I've often thought this was a good idea. The "interfaces" between the smaller companies would be far more strict and simple then interfaces between departments in a single large company. It's like the difference between buying a hamburger from a fast food chain which is extremely easy and asking a co-worker to sell you a burger which gets complicated very quickly.

Overhead in terms of office space etc would increase. However the simplicity of the necessary interactions between the smaller companies could turn the entire arrangement into a net gain for the parent company.


Yeah, they are already bouncing around above their Dunbar number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbars_number). Methinks changes are afoot (either no longer growing or no longer operating the same way).


Valve seems to operate as a tribe and there's a limit on how huge those can get.

Genghis Khan would disagree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire


Like Gabe he had a rather large collection of weapons. The difference is he wouldn't hesitate to use them on those that disagree with his leadership.


Even ignoring that there just are going to be a lot more 300 person companies than 50,000 person companies, I'm not sure we actually need that many 50,000 person companies.

I personally think we're better off if businesses are large enough to operate reasonably efficiently at a single or small set of tasks/products, and no bigger. For one, you begin having weird things happen like a product being canceled or retired not because it was unprofitable to make, but because the company thought there were more profitable products they could be making. (Anyone remember HP's decision to stop making desktop computers?)

For another, you end up with a single point of failure with respect to management. With a hundred companies with a hundred CEOs, some of them of them will prosper and some of them will fail. If those hundred companies merge into a single company with a single CEO, the consequences of terrible management are now a hundred times worse.


Yep, I knew about Valve and they are an inspiration, truly.

I think Gabe and the other people in charge realized a quite important fact: it's not because they're in charge that their opinions and beliefs are automatically worth more than those of the people who work for them.


I wonder if this has anything to do with HL3 taking so long to release. Only partly joking.


You know, it probably is-but perhaps it's a good thing.


Valve does use a form of stack ranking btw. Read their employee handbook. It's on the net.




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