This right here why I won’t be buying one anytime soon. From the nightmares I’ve heard about on supply chain issues affecting repairs to the constant concern of on-going quality control, cars should last 8-10 years.
So years and years of hype from Tesla about an electric car and self driving revolution etc, all that hype in the media is fine. That was wanted, desired, intended. His constant need for attention all over Twitter including buying the company
But then Tesla supporters cry when they’re singled out for recalls?
It swings both ways
Edit: not to mention the constant lying - sorry, artistic license in marketing - about the abilities of automated vehicles. But calling this a “recall”? Wahhhh.
This also nags at me. The hype cycle was used to drive TSLA — cool, good for them. But absolutely cuts both ways. I’ve looked at buying one a bunch of times. Beautiful car and I love driving. But it’s a depreciating asset and I hate headaches of customer support.
> But then Tesla supporters cry when they’re singled out for recalls?
How about just wanting to be objective and not misleading?
Also, to some degree Tesla did deliver electric car revolution by creating some of the first actually desirable BEVs, eventually forcing major car companies to do the same.
(Nissan Leaf et al sure contributed a lot as well, but that's irrelevant for this discussion.)
Some people can't do anything unless they're part of a tribe.
I'd reckon a lot of sports 'fanatics' don't even like the sport that much, or at least not as much as the crowd they're hanging with, or the 'tribe'.
It's the same for apple fan boys - android is just as good (sometimes better), political fanboys who worship Trump, and ignore the bad. I mean if someone I 'like' verses 'adore' does something shitty - I tend to reverse course on my opinion.
I used to be a big fan of Musk, especially with regards to spacex, but the man's personality has soured me.
People who need to be in a tribe - have a need to have someone tell them how to act/behave I think they may have some psychological trauma that draws them to that, it's the only thing that explains it.
Personally I ask myself often if I'm doing something because I really like it, because it's expected, or others are doing it. I find I then try and do what's not popular especially if it's a better choice anyways. Dead Poet's society is a favorite movie of mine, and the part where they learn about the dangers of conformity always stuck with me, and has become a core value.
My boring Hondas just keep racking up miles with few problems. And the few recalls they’ve had, including ones they told me about, the problem has always been fixed same day.
How does that user experience compare to Tesla repairs?
My experience in getting a Tesla repair vs. getting a Honda recall repair:
Tesla: made an appointment on the app at a time that worked for me (about a week out). Drove in, parked the car, walked away in under 5 minutes. App notifies me I've got a $100 per ride Uber credit to get back to work/home. Repair is completed in about 5 hours, I get a call and notification that the work is done.
Honda: airbag recall - the dealership can't tell me when it'll be finished, offers to buy my car because "it's not safe anymore anyways", high pressure sales tactics while I wait to drop off / sign in. Repair takes two days, no loaner vehicle or drop-off shuttle. Three weeks after I pick up my car the airbag light starts flashing intermittently. I bring the car back, they tell me it'll be $2300 to "investigate" and could take a few days. If they find it was due to the recall repair work I might not be charged, but if there's any hint it was something else I'll need to pay for that repair (in addition to the investigation).
It’s partly because Musk is very public. What you’re saying about this HN headline of a government report is fair, but if Musk was a boring CEO, this wouldn’t get any attention/derision from crowds. Is the double edged sword of no advertising and seeking exposure via the press
I agree, you should get the best EV ever, Porsche Taycan. They only had, checks notes, 10 recalls so far in 2022 for things like suspension three times, brakes, lights, full power loss, dead console, no cameras, flickering cameras, dead seat controls, seat belts twice!
for some perspective, Toyota is widely regarded as being among the most reliable car brands, but nonetheless the Prius I owned for over a decade was subject to numerous recalls
I still consider Toyota to be a high-quality, trustworthy brand
Historically, there was little that could go wrong with a vehicle that wasn't in some way physical. A recall really meant recalling your product to the place of purchase for some sort of physical intervention.
Today, there is software that can and does go wrong... Maybe moreso than the physical... But the regulatory environment hasn't kept pace with the technology.
So software issues like this must still be called a recall and communicated as such. Unfortunately, the connotation of a severe issue requiring the physical product is also lagging in the culture, thus stories like the one posted about a software update delivered over the air
Software has been in cars for a long time but I worry about its pervasiveness, especially as it applies to the lifetime of cars. I have a 1997 car that I keep for sentimental reasons and I like its “rawness” compared to my 2017 daily driver with auto-braking, lane assist, infotainment, directional headlights, etc. I made sure to buy an extended warranty on the new car because anything that goes wrong wrong will be an expensive fix that I can’t do myself. 20-30 years later how will these technologically modern cars fare?
"recall" is an overloaded term. the connotation is that theres a serious defect requiring the cars to be sent back to the factory, but often times its just like a firmware update. we should really have two different words for this.
it kind of like in the NFL, "injured reserve" used to mean the player cant play again for the rest of the season. then they changed it to 4 weeks, so now you hear a player "is going on IR" and it's not clear what that actually means.
I used to work at a car company that has a reputation for reliability. This reporting is frustrating - a recall isn’t a bad thing, it’s a car company getting ahead of the problem. Our alternative was to sit on issues until someone (potentially) gets hurt and it’s a “real” issue. Not to mention, I’m not even sure how a firmware update gets this kind of negative publicity.
But it hasn't been the car companies getting ahead of the problem. It has become the last thing they want to do. I recall Ford rather paying victims of roll overs than admit to recalling. The negative press is warranted especially if the recall was forced by the government.
Firmware updates can have drastic far reaching effects when your car is primarily computer controlled, and is, relatively speaking, chock full of software based interlocks that essentially implement product binning.
People are becoming more aware of the impact of all that "crap nobody is willing to let you see", and it is, in my estimation, a good thing.
I would guess insufficient processes and testing. Even if engineers are too tired and produce a lot of bugs, process and testing should find ensure they dont get into production.
Hah. Roght. Most places are preaching the "superiority of people to process/Fragile" nowadays. Where process is had, it's largely going to be as strictly enforced as the first manager looking yo juice some metrics. I've yet to see anywhere credibly stick/adhere to their own process.
Not necessarily, I work in materials R&D and in most cases real world edge cases can never all be discovered without development rate going to zero; this is due to unbounded complexity in the world.
> the affected cars have problems with their power-steering assist system when driving on rough roads or after hitting a pothole
I suppose it's not a pure software issue, but a combination of hardware and software issues in exceptional circumstances like potholes and rough movements.
I meant exceptional in the engineering sense of being unexpected by original (happy-path) models of function, not exceptional in sense of being unheard of in the real world.
...Except, in the engineering sense, dealing with rough surfaces/potholes should absolutely be filed under "normal use". If someone built a car that wasn't at least checked for behavior in media real, I certainly would have rather profound concerns over it's manufacture.
> Except, in the engineering sense, dealing with rough surfaces/potholes should absolutely be filed under "normal use".
I never claimed otherwise.
The engineers' original model of function was faulty, and should've included rough surfaces/potholes. But since it (obviously) didn't, that makes rough surfaces/potholes an exceptional circumstance in the context of their model.
Shouldn't the government be responsible for paying repairs to vehicles that have sustained damages due to potholes? Or do they just take people's taxes for no return?
> the affected cars have problems with their power-steering assist system when driving on rough roads or after hitting a pothole. The issue would leave drivers without the assistance to move the steering wheel with the help of the electric technology, forcing drivers to use a lot of force to move the steering wheel
While not a recall in the sense of having to surrender your car back to an official shop, this is far from an improvement. It's reasonable to expect any car built in the last 50 years to operate as normal after hitting a pothole.
Also, if you haven't experienced it, steering a car with failed power steering is much harder than a car that just doesn't have it, because you are fighting the hydraulics. Last time I had to do this it took all my strength and I had to brace myself against the door, just to turn into a garage. So the scenario addressed by the recall can effectively disable the vehicle.
Protip if in that situation again: it is much much easier to turn the wheel if the car is moving even very slowly.
If you are not moving, you are literally grinding the tires into the pavement with the entire weight of the car on them, if you are rolling it is easier.
I've owned several cars without power steering, definitely familiar with this. In my experience the effort to turn a car with disabled power steering exceeds this even when the affected vehicle is moving. Though I'm sure this varies by model and weight.
Normal car power steering operates with a rubber belt that can break at any time. It's being fixed just like you may have to fix a serpentine belt one day.
It's increasingly common for conventional cars to have electric power steering, because it definitely has advantages over mechanically-pumped systems—both maintenance and efficiency. GM tried this several years ago with poor results, but the systems providers (Bosch etc.) have made great strides; I expect almost all new models will have it soon.
No. It's being fixed as if every car off the line had been shipped with a defective serpentine belt from day zero. I have no bone to pick with Tesla but let's not confuse normal wear and tear with sloppy engineering.
It's reasonable to expect any car built in the last 50 years to have "recalls" such as this. Most, won't be fixed over an OTA update like this. Instead, you'd have to take it into the dealership and waste time that way.
Because what’s happening here is “Tesla remedies manufacturing defect in accordance with law.” That’s how recalls work.
I think OTA recall implementations are a terrific innovation, and far better than the old system of taking your car to a dealership (though the other automakers are adapting - I got a call the other day offering to send a tech to my house to apply the fix for a recall on my car). But fixing a defect in the car at the manufacturer’s expense is, quite literally, the bare minimum required.
I think it's because there's a divide between the public's understanding of the word recall and the technical meaning in the automotive industry. The media likes to play on that to make it more scary than it should.
A “recall” is a very specific technical term in this context.
It is a formal notice of a safety defect by a manufacturer to all affected parties that they have a defective product. It identifies the nature of the problem, the consequences of the problem, the affected parties, and the known remedy or steps the affected parties should take. It also requires the fixes to be offered to all affected parties free of charge.
A recall is supposed to be issued in all cases that a safety defect is detected to guarantee that all customers are informed of potential problems and that the manufacturers are on the hook for solving them.
"According to [Tesla], the affected cars have problems with their power-steering assist system when driving on rough roads or after hitting a pothole. The issue would leave drivers without the assistance to move the steering wheel with the help of the electric technology, forcing drivers to use a lot of force to move the steering wheel and increasing the likelihood of crashes, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
"The problem began when Tesla rolled out an update for a new calibration value for their electronic power assist steering system only to have alerts about the update a week later, according to the NHTSA.
Tesla has released a firmware update to recalibrate the issue already. According to Tesla, 97% of the recalled vehicles had an update installed that addressed the issue. There have been no official reports of injury linked to the potential loss of steering assistance."
It is as serious issue as if it would be caused by faulty hardware. It is cool that it is possible to fix malfunctioning cars faster. But the Teslas were actually malfunctioning in serious way.
How do you infer “Its not a software-only fix” from that?
Also, FTA:
“The problem began when Tesla rolled out an update for a new calibration value for their electronic power assist steering system only to have alerts about the update a week later, according to the NHTSA.
Tesla has released a firmware update to recalibrate the issue already”
So, Tesla claims otherwise. Power steering ¿nowadays? isn’t simply “multiply the force the driver exerts”. You want to use the same hardware for lane assist, for example. That certainly involves software. I don’t know how potholes would interact with that, but I do not see any reason this must also involve a hardware change.
Because "oh shit power steering is gone" has not been an issue on any other car since the early 1990s unless your care came with no power steering initially. And because "oh shit power steering is gone because I hit a pothole" is not something you want improved, it's something that should never fucking happen and would never happen on any modern car.
