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The EU handling of Greece hasn't helped either. And it happened only a decade ago rather than half a century ago.


You mean installing a dictatorship is comparable to attaching (perhaps excessively harsh) conditions to financial support?


AFAIK that Junta was removed almost 40+ years ago. It's effect is lesser than something that happened relatively recently.

Meanwhile, by refusing to help Greece with its debt, not only did EU increased the debt, but inadvertently legitimized the right option, by saying there will be no debt canceling (which was left position at the time).


Giving money in exchange for reforms seems like help to me. You're helping when you teach a man to fish, not when you just hand him a fish to only eat for one day.


Except the reforms were not reasonable. More like telling a man to cut off an arm to get a fish. Doesn’t teach you to fish in the future and creates lots of suffering in the present.


I wonder who would be suitable to decide what is reasonable. Is it:

a) a country with a record of mismanagement and debt it cannot pay back

b) a set of countries that do not have a record of mismanagement and have the ability to help out a country that is in debt

If we take your metaphor we could say the choice is:

a) do not accept the terms and starve to death

b) cut off your arm and live with rules to live by to prevent the scenario from repeating


Let me rephrase your first (b).

b) a set of banks who were willingly ignorant that they were lending to a state with a history of bankruptcy over many decades, because they believed/knew that when push came to shove the EU (taxpayers) would bail them out (which they did. You realise that the Greek "bailout" was a bailout of the EU banks that lent to the Greek state).


I think it is widely accepted that the terms imposed on Greece were unreasonable – not just because they caused very high unemployment and poverty, but also because they were based on a completely unrealistic assessment of the country’s ability to pay back its debt. A good book on the topic (and much else) is Adam Tooze’s Crashed.


>Except the reforms were not reasonable.

So the optimal option would've been to leave Greece to its own devices?


The optimal option would have been to demand root and branch reforms in exchange for very substantial debt relief.


The EU's "financial support" means that Greece's economy will be in slow growth or recession with high unemployment for decades. That will probably lead to unhealthy governments. They would be better off if they had gone through with grexit when they had the chance.


The difference is that a military junta doesn't give the people a choice.

Contrary to that, the agreement with the EU was negotiated by multiple democratically elected governments and confirmed in a referendum.

They had a chance to make different choices and they still do. No one is taking their democratic rights away from them.


> the agreement with the EU was negotiated by multiple democratically elected governments and confirmed in a referendum.

Excuse me? Syriza reneged on the referendum result! The people spoke, and Tsipras did the opposite!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Greek_bailout_referendum#...


I was wrong (can no longer edit). The referendum did not confirm the bailout terms. In fact it went against the agreement, but the newly elected government still made a deal.


> The difference is that a military junta doesn't give the people a choice.

That's not true. Military junta gives you option. Serve us or be punished. Prison or death.

EU negotiators gave Greece a choice too. Agree to our demands or we destroy your economy.

Thing is, that works for Greece, since the debt was small compared to EU budget. That won't work for Italy or Spain.

And if they get debt relief, when Greece didn't, there are going to be problems.


>EU negotiators gave Greece a choice too. Agree to our demands or we destroy your economy.

No. The destruction was done in decades of mismanagement by successive Greek governments.

But if you think that I agree with the bailout terms you are mistaken. Quite the contrary. I think there should have been debt relief so that Greece can make a new start.

But I reject the idea that installing a dictatorship is comparable to not granting someone debt relief or not extending new loans to them.




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