I find more modern American humour much easier to relate to, probably because it has veered more in this direction. A show like Always Sunny seems incredibly British-compatible because it's about terrible people getting their comeuppance, yet still being sympathetic despite their failings.
To go full British, you need characters like David Brent, who aren't sympathetic. They have no redeeming heartfelt goodbye. No-one is sad when they're gone, life moves on.
I would also say that the Always Sunny gang really aren't sympathetic either, but it's a para-social trick of having spent so much time "together" with them over so many episodes.
I suspect a new viewer coming to watch the latest series of IASIP would not see them as sympathetic. That's quite different to The Office (US), where a new viewer skipping to later seasons would not have the same opinions as a new viewer watching season 1, where Scott was much closer to a Brent type character, before he was redeemed and made more pitiable than awful over the seasons.
You're right, there are plenty of sympathetic ones too, but it's the unsympathetic ones that really don't do so well to a US audience. There's a reason that The Office (US) hard pivoted Michael Scott after season 1.
A more recent show to compare would be the UK vs the USA version of Ghosts. I like both shows but it is interesting how in the USA version all the main Ghosts are basically good people while the UK Ghosts have more serious flaws. And in the UK version, money is a constant problem while in the USA version it isn't nearly as big of a problem.
> I would also say that the Always Sunny gang really aren't sympathetic either, but it's a para-social trick of having spent so much time "together" with them over so many episodes.
I'd say they're charismatic and funny, but irredeemably bad people. It was refreshing that the show didn't shy away from that; in lots of comedies, the characters are basically psychopathic if taken literally, yet we're still supposed to like them and to see them as having hearts of gold if they make the occasional nice gesture. Always Sunny just leaned hard into portraying them as terrible people who were only 'likable' in the shallow sense needed to make the show fun to watch rather than an ordeal.
But I think the creators eventually lost sight of that -- I remember the big serious episode they did with Mac's dance, and I just find it baffling because in order to buy into the emotion we were evidently supposed to feel, we needed to take the characters seriously. And as soon as we take the characters seriously we are (or should be) overwhelmingly aware that we're watching people who have proven over the previous umpteen years to be irredeemable sociopaths, which kind of takes the edge off the heartwarming pride story.
I only watched the first few seasons of IASIP, but I don’t remember them being sympathetic characters at all. The whole concept, and what made it funny, I thought, is that they really are all terrible people who just drag each other down.
Yeah, the conceit of Seinfeld was that the characters were crappy, but you liked them because they were funny. But they didn't actually lean into that as hard as, say, the finale would suggest. All of the characters have something sympathetic that you can like about them, even if you can buy the thesis that they are unsympathetic broadly.
The genius of IASIP is to just lean all the way into this trope. The characters are never sympathetic and never redeem themselves. It's almost an experiment in whether you can make people feel sympathetic toward awful (but entertaining) characters just through long familiarity with them. (Yes.)
They were more human and relatable in the very early seasons. It was just a bunch of people dicking around trying to run a bar (for the most part).
As time went on, they become more and more awful.
I'd say it has a pretty decent parallel with Breaking Bad. In season 1 almost anyone can relate to and cheers for Walter. By the last season, you hate him and are happy he dies.
They were committing various felonies in the first season, if I recall. It couldn’t have been more clear that these characters are bad people who will do almost anything to get what they want. The humor lies in the arbitrary and inconsistent boundaries they set for themselves and each other.
Contrast with the initial good intentions of Walt in Breaking Bad. The IASIP characters never had good intentions.
Walt never really had a good intentions. That is what first season done - he had an out and legal access to money. But he was likable and all of the consequences were not yet known.
No way. Everyone hates Walter at the end. If he had plausibly maintained the "I was doing it for my family" pose, then maybe, yeah. But the whole point of the last season was putting that idea to bed, demonstrating that it was always destructive selfishness.
It's just not gonna generate a lot of discussion to say "the intended interpretation of the character is correct". The reason Skylar gets a lot of discussion is that there's a lot of disagreement on the interpretation of that character.
On that topic, I think the perspective you're replying to is cope. It would have been better for everyone (else) involved if he took the money from his smarmy friend, took the abuse from his dick boss at his second job, took the abuse from his asshole rich student, took the subtle jabs from his family. Generally, if he swallowed his pride.
Of course, the whole reason the show had a plot is that he was too proud, too toxically masculine, to go that route. And I think the show's implicit thesis is that self-immolating as Walter did was preferable to enduring the indignity of his life. Certainly, it was more fun for the audience.
This is contrary to you and GP, making the (what I observe to be) common assertion that the show is a parable about the danger of toxic masculinity, and anyone who doesn't believe this is too stupid, sexist, or both to "get it" (parenthetically, where you differ I agree with you - people who think Walter is cool and Skylar annoying are legion). The reason I'm calling this "cope" is that reading the show as a morality play condemning toxic masculinity allows one to enjoy it without guilt. This is moral art! If only all that human filth on the internet were smart enough to realize it!
I just don't buy it, though. I think the show is about how being a monster is cooler than being responsible, in large part because all the people who depend on you to be responsible are so damn annoying.
It's not about masculinity at all, it's just "pride comes before the fall". That is not gendered. Both men and women are entirely capable of being destructively prideful. The reason Walter is a villain is that his prideful destruction isn't merely a self-destruction. He also tears apart a bunch of other lives, including those of his wife and children. Again, I'm sorry, but gender isn't the issue with this, if it were a woman who carved a path of destruction through her family and community, she would also be a villain. (And of course these stories exist too.)
The binary options you've proposed to somewhat vindicate Walter's choices were not the only options available to him. The whole point is that he's so brilliant that he can take over a whole regional drug trade in like a year. Well I'm sorry, but if he could do that, he could also have put his brilliance toward some other wildly successful business venture that would not have required blowing people up and putting his family in danger from like three different gangs of violent criminals. There were other options besides eating shit from his rich friend and boss.
He did what he did because he liked it, and he's responsible for the damage that did to the people around him.
I'll admit I gendered it because that's the discourse I always see.
But anyway - you're speaking to whether Walter's actions were moral. I'm more interested in what is the show's attitude towards his actions. Is the show condemning, or glorifying. I think it's closer to the latter, regardless of how poorly things went for Walter in the end.
> The whole point is that he's so brilliant that he can take over a whole regional drug trade in like a year. Well I'm sorry, but if he could do that, he could also have put his brilliance toward some other wildly successful business venture that would not have required blowing people up and putting his family in danger from like three different gangs of violent criminals.
Sure. But, again, I think this is just another implicit thesis of the show. It's easier and more fun to be an amoral asshole without regard for any of your obligations to anyone else.
Right, the show's position is that he took the "easier and more fun" way, because of his selfish pride, and ended up hurting everyone he cared about, which is why he's the villain. It's very clear about this!
Does he do evil, despicable things? Absolutely. Are most of those things done because of jealousy, rage, or a failure to bother to understand the context in which he's operating? Definitely. But, like, unless you've never been jealous, blindingly angry, foolish, or far too hasty, you can see where (assuming turning yourself in to the cops isn't an option [0]) you might end up making similar choices. [1]
Is he prideful, wrathful, did he do many evil things? Yes, yes, and yes. It's not unreasonable to call his (in)actions -on balance- monstrous. But he's also relatable/understandable in a -er- "Greek tragedy" sort of way. He's a blunderer and a wrecker who probably deserved far worse than he got, but I find it dreadfully difficult to hate him when I consider the entire story.
[0] Which it pretty much immediately absolutely was not. Even at the start, all the money he made would have been forfeit and (because the USian "Drug War" is batshit crazy) prosecutors probably would have found a way to take the house and cars, leaving his family way worse off than if he'd done nothing at all.
[1] Having said that, there are so many points of decision that the odds that you'd walk his path exactly are approximately zero.
No, nationalism and patriotism started to be embarrassing to the educated classes in the US after the USSR collapsed. We had "won", and slavish obedience and loyalty are really not consistent with the values of liberalism and democracy, and empire is quite uncomfortable if you believe in human rights and self-determination, etc. Our society has been changing because it's running into the contradictions of a culture designed to foster the unity necessary to win wars and dominate the world and an idealism that says all humanity is equal and freedom and self-determination are inherently good.
Nobody ever sees my Mac but me and the monitor is a horrible old Dell one with a thick black bezel. If we were talking about iPhones, I might agree with your point.
Exactly this. The question pretends that there is a whole group of "power users" who all do the same thing, but that couldn't be further from the truth IMO. There are users like me who program and don't want to spend forever configuring audio driers, etc. There are power users who like to tinker. And there are people who do a bit of both, to every extent on the scale.
Every login steam steals focus no less than two times. Steam is one of the few login items I'd choose to keep, but wasting the first 30 seconds of login is too heavy a price to pay.
... beyond a specific size. This important distinction might transform "anybody" into "10%" or "5%" or "0.001%"—who knows, I'm still trying to figure this out!
What is it about multiselect or radio buttons that you feel is lacking in the current Web platform?
As someone who has never really dived into React etc., my main question is "where is the line?"
I'm sure you'll agree that React is overkill for some applications and, for the sake of this discussion, I'll agree that it's beneficial for applications beyond a certain complexity.
But where exactly (or even, roughly) does that line lie? A basic CRUD app? Surely not. A calculator? I'm guessing "no". Bluesky? Maybe/probably.
Bluesky absolutely yes, something like React makes sense.
I think it depends on a few things but the two big ones in my mind are:
1) Interactivity. How rich do you need/want the interactivity to be? As this scales up the benefit of React also increases.
Of course you can get highly interactive vanilla HTML sites but it’s much easier to achieve with React.
2) Statefulness. The more UI state you have the more a tool like React helps you.
Again, it’s not doing anything you cannot do with vanilla HTML/JS but the level of difficulty comparatively is night and day.
On top of that, React is widely adopted. The tooling is fantastic, the community is strong, the job prospects are very good, and if you’re hiring the talent pool for React is vast.
2 pieces of UI in different parts of the page that depend on the same data - that's the line (also matches the initial goal of React - sync FB chat widgets).
We've enjoyed a certain period (at least a couple of decades) of global, anonymous collaboration that seems to be ending. Trust in the individual is going to become more important in many areas of life, from open-source to journalism and job interviews.
I've been trying to manifest Web of Trust coming back to help people navigate towards content that's created by humans.
A system where I can mark other people as trusted and see who they trust, so when I navigate to a web page or in this case, a Github pull request, my WoT would tell me if this is a trusted person according to my network.
You need a very complex weighing and revocation mechanism because once one bad player is in your web of trust they can become a node along which both other bad players and good players alike can join.
Trust in the real world is not immutable. It is constantly re-evaluated. So the Web of Trust concept should do this as well.
Also, there needs to be some significant consequence to people who are bad actors and, transitively, to people who trust bad actors.
The hardest part isn’t figuring out how to cut off the low quality nodes. It’s how to incentivize people to join a network where the consequences are so high that you really won’t want to violate trust. It can’t simply be a free account that only requires an a verifiable email address. It will have to require a significant investment in verifying real world identity, preventing multiple accounts, reducing account hijackings, etc. those are all expensive and high friction.
Build a tree, cut the tree at the first link, now you get rid of all of them. Will have some collateral damage though, but maybe safe to assume actually "good players" can rejoin at another maybe more stable leaf
That does not work because you won't have multiple parties vouching for a new entrant. That's the whole reason a web was chosen instead of a tree in the first place. Trees are super fragile in comparison, bad actors would have a much bigger chance of going undetected in a tree like arrangement.
At protocol (Bluesky) will I hope have better trust signals, since your Personal Data Server stores your microblog/posts and a bunch of other data. And the data is public. It's much harder to convincingly fake being a cross-media human.
If someone showed up on at-proto powered book review site like https://bookhive.buzz and started trying to post nonsense reviews, or started running bots, it would be much more transparent what was afoot.
More explicit trust signalling would be very fun to add.
I've been thinking this exact thing! But it's too abstract a thought for me to try creating anything yet.
A curation network, one which uses SSL-style chain-of-trust (and RSS-style feeds maybe?) seems like it could be a solution, but I'm not able to advance the thought from just being an amorphous idea.
The problem is that even the people I would happily take advise from when meeting in real life, occasionally mindlessly copy AI-output about subjects they don't know about. And they see nothing wrong with it.
I would go even further. I only want to see content created by people who are in a chain of trust with me.
AI slop is so cheap that it has created a blight on content platforms. People will seek out authentic content in many spaces. People will even pay to avoid the mass “deception for profit” industry (eg. Industries where companies bot ratings/reviews to profit and where social media accounts are created purely for rage bait / engagement farming).
But reputation in a WoT network has to be paramount. The invite system needs a “vouch” so there are consequences to you and your upstream vouch if there is a breach of trust (eg. lying, paid promotions, spamming). Consequences need to be far more severe than the marginal profit to be made from these breaches.
Trust and do what with it though. I trust Chomsky but I can mark his interviews "Don't show" because I'm sick of them. Or like Facebook lets your follow 'friend' but ignore them. So trust and do what with that trust? A network of people who'll let each other move on short notice ? Something like that?
> global, anonymous collaboration that seems to be ending. Trust in the individual is going to become more important in many areas of life
I don't think it's coming to an end. It's getting more difficult, yes, but not impossible. Currently I'm working on a game, and since I'm not an artist, I pay artists to create the art. The person I'm working closest with I have basically no idea who they are, except their name, email and the country they live in. Otherwise it's basically "they send me a draft > I review/provide feedback > Iterate until done > I send them money", and both of us know basically nothing of the other.
I agree that trust in the individual is becoming more important, but it's always been one of the most important thing for collaborations or anything that involves other human beings. We've tried to move that trust to other system, but seems instead we're only able to move the trust to the people building and maintaining those systems, instead of getting rid of it completely.
Maybe, "trust" is just here to stay, and we all be better off as soon as we start to realize this, and reconnect with the people around us and connect with the people on the other side of the world.
> How do you know it's a person on the other end? Would you even see a difference if you had a computer generate that art?
Unless AI companies already developed and launched plugins/extensions for people to do something that looks like hand drawn sketches inside of Clip Studio, and suddenly got a lot better at understanding prompts (including having inspiration of their own), then I'm pretty sure it's a human.
I don't think I'd get to see in-progress sketches and it wouldn't be as good at understanding what I wanted to have had changes then. I've used various generative AI image generators (latest one Qwen Image 2511 and a whole bunch of others) and none of them, including with "prompt enhancements" can take very vague descriptions of "I want it to feel like X" or "I'm not sure about Y but something like Z" and turn it into something that looks acceptable. At least not yet.
And because I've spent a lot of time with various generative image making processes and models, I'm fairly confident I'd recognize if that was what was happening.
Sure, it's true today. Entertain the hypothetical though because this is what the trillion dollar rush is aspiring to do in the near future. We should be thinking about our answers now.
Answers to what? Do I care what tools the artist use as long I get the results I want? I don't understand what you see as the issue, that I somehow think I'd be working with a human but it was a machine?
A deceit isn't the issue. The issue is that person you're paying is going to be undercut this year by machines, along with probably 100M other people selling their labor.
I think it absolutely is coming to an end in lots of ways.
Movie/show reviews, product reviews, app/browser extension reviews, programming libraries, etc all get gamed. An entire industry of booting reviews has sprung up from PR companies brigading positive reviews for their clients.
The better AI gets at slop and controlling bots to create slop which is indistinguishable from human content, the less people will trust content on those platforms.
Your trust relationship with your artist almost certainly was based on something other than just contact info. Usually you review a portfolio, a professional profile, and you start with a small project to limit your downside risk. This tentative relationship and phased stages where trust is increased is how human trust relationships have always worked.
> Movie/show reviews, product reviews, app/browser extension reviews, programming libraries, etc all get gamed. An entire industry of booting reviews has sprung up from PR companies brigading positive reviews for their clients.
But for a long time, unrelated to AI. When Amazon was first available here in Spain (don't remember exactly what year, but before LLMs for sure), the amount of fraudulent reviews filling the platform was already noticeable at that point.
That industry you're talking about might have gotten new wings with LLMs, but it wasn't spawned by LLMs, it existed long time before that.
> the less people will trust content on those platforms.
Maybe I'm jarred from using the internet from a young age, but both me and my peers basically has a built-in mistrust against random stuff we see on the internet, at least compared to our parents and our younger peers.
"Don't believe everything you see on the internet" been a mantra almost for as long as the internet has existed, maybe people forgot and needed an reminder, but it was never not true.
LLMs reduce the marginal cost per unit of content.
When snail mail had a cost floor of $0.25 for the price of postage, email was basically free. You might get 2-3 daily pieces of junk mail in your house’s mailbox, but you would get hundreds or thousands in your email inbox. Slop comes at scale. LLMs didn’t invent spam, but they are making it easier to create more variants of it, and possibly ones that convert better than procedurally generated pieces.
There’s a difference between your cognitive brain and your lizard brain. You can tell yourself that mantra, but still occasionally fall prey to spam content. The people who make spam have a financial incentive to abuse the heuristics/signals you use to determine the authenticity of a piece of content in the same way cheap knockoffs of Rolex watches, Cartier jewelry, or Chanel handbags have to make the knockoffs appear as authentic as possible.
>When snail mail had a cost floor of $0.25 for the price of postage
Hence I suspect that quite a few of these interfaces that are now being spammed with AI crap will end up implementing something that represents a fee, a paywall, or a trustwall. That should keep armies of AI slop responses from being worthwhile.
How we do that without killing some communities is yet to be seen.
Your tone is disagreement, but it's not clear why?
There is an individual who you trust to do good work, and who works well with you. They're not anonymous. Addressing the topic of this thread, you know (or should know) that it is not AI slop.
That is a significant amount of knowledge and trust in an individual, and the very point I thought the GP was making.
Some projects, like Linux (the kernel) have always been developed that way. Linus has described the trust model in the kernel to be very much "web of trust". You don't just submit patches directly to Linus, you submit them to module maintainers who are trusted by subsystem maintainers and who are all ultimately, indirectly trusted by the branch maintainer (Linus).
the web brought instant infinite 'data', we used to have limits, limits that would kinda ensure the reality of what is communicated.. we should go back to that it's efficient
That's exactly how it usually happens in my experience. I think a lot of people are OK if everyones upright on short haul flights (here most budget airlines don't have a recline facility and it's not missed) but once someone reclines into your space you then recline to gain a little space back and the domino effect takes place even if you're not sleeping.
And then the person in the last row is screwed because they are in a seat that doesn't recline but the seat in front of them does, so they have to sit like a canned sardine for the entire flight(ask me how I know).
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