different point of view: tab grouping took 20+y to develop (since opera had it in 2000s).
in 2026 firefox should have:
- fast ui
- fast js
- fast rendering
- hw acceleration for video
- same look and feel on all platforms
- faster adblocker
just the basics, no? didn't add more advanced features here.
and let's see what is actually here:
- UI rendered via HTML/xul. an abomination. a slow abomination at that. right clicking something can show you stagers of rendering of a menu.
- check any Js benchmarks, you will see how FF stands
- rendering,... there was a talk in one of the conferences explaining timing requests and time-to-picture. this may be blamed on the standards, but chrome does it better
- video hw acceleration on Linux? is this actually working? and I don't mean 3/100 relevant codecs
- same look and feel - done
- AdBlock is the only advantage you have over other platforms. it would make sense to implement this in the browser and not rely on Js and extensions
it's sad and funny that people with only a couple million are going to soon catch up to Mozilla and make it obsolete, by building a Bowser engine, not only a shell around blink/WebKit.
Look at what happened to Opera. They fell apart, abandoned their Presto engine for Chromium and sold to an outside investment group and now they serve ads based on user data.
There was, in my opinion, no better browser company past or present than Opera in the 2000s and 2010s (sorry Mozilla). But their example exposes the fallacy of assuming that building out great features guarantees market share gains.
opera had a different business model. I don't think they had millions upon miliona that Mozilla gets from Google for antitrust reasons.
opera had to earn their money.
this aside, Mozilla just now implemented tab grouping. does that mean they are going to, because of the added features, follow opera's path?
my point was that someone said how they increased development speed. and I'm saying they are breaking record in how slow it is. it's not 1y, it's since the feature appeared anywhere and it's 20y ago. what the f was Mozilla doing since then? obviously they didn't work on the features. but also they didn't work on the other list of things I mentioned since only one is fully delivered (look and feel on all platforms) and those are non-features like fore mentioned tab groupings, but core capabilities for a browser.
in everything else they are so much behind it's really a wonder they still have market share as much as they do.
What are you talking about? Opera and Mozilla are both in the business of trying to deliver a good browser, which means good features. Different financing doesn't change the mandate to deliver good browser features, and Opera most definitely did rely on search licensing as their primary income stream anyway, despite attempts to diversify (for years they relied on Google and Yandex and got more money from that than other forms of financing).
As I said, my opinionated hot take is that Opera was probably the best ever at delivering features and performance beloved by users, but that wasn't enough to move the needle on market share, which is why Opera perfectly exposes the fallacy of assuming better features = better market share. In this context appealing to "business structure" is a deflection.
Also, this tab grouping argument is mistaken both on its own terms but more broadly as a stand in for the argument that the Mozilla team has supposedly done nothing. Firefox had native tab grouping years before Chrome ever had it, had arguably the best tab grouping extension of any browser due to an intentional choice to invest in an extension ecosystem that made that functionality possible, and for the most part, Firefox has never not had tab grouping. What's new is that it's back as a baked-in default rather than merely present as a best in class extension.
The idea that Firefox has done nothing is an unfortunate impression that comes from looking at a serious of unfortunately critical tech headlines and losing sight of nuts and bolts development. I don't have the patience to recite everything here, but every year they push millions of lines of new code, thousands of patches, and deliver measurable improvements to major browser components like webGPU, javascript rendering, shipping production quality rust code, and more for a browser with 30 million lines of code.
> Standards bureaucracies like the Linux Foundation (which consumed the Free Standards Group in its' ever-growing accretion disk years ago) happily document and add to this sort of complexity without ever trying to understand why it was there in the first place.
this is the reason in my opinion and experience
as a lead dev in a rather complicated environment I tended to solve the problem many times where some identifier was used. short deadlines and no specification made us solve the problem quickly, so some shortcuts and quick actions were done. this identifier gets asked about later and super overcomplicated explanations given as a reason by people that don't know the history.
...and the history is often like 'they mounted stuff to /usr because they got a third drive'. and now, people even in this thread keep giving explanations like it's something more.
> The reverse of the string 'gssssyeekxxuoaqaaaiooo9aaa7zjx' is:
xjz7aaa9oooiiaaaqauxxkyeessssg
> Youve made a mistake
```
I see where I tripped up! Let's re-examine that long string carefully.
The original string you gave me was:
`gssssyeekxxuoaqaaaiooo9aaa7zjx`
Let's look at the end of that string: `...aaa7zjx`.
When we reverse it, it should start with: `xjz7aaa...`
Here is the precise character-by-character reversal:
*xjz7aaa9oooiiaaaqauxxkyeessssg*
Wait—I see it now. In my previous response, I included an extra *'i'* and missed one *'o'* in the middle section. Let's do a strict count to get it perfect:
The correct reversed string is:
*xjz7aaa9oooiiaaaqauoxxkyeessssg*
Thank you for catching that. It’s easy for the eyes to glaze over when there are so many repeating vowels!
Since I've stumbled a bit on these, would you like to give me one more string to see if I can get it right on the first try?
```
After more back and fors it consistently fails in this task, even though when strictly dividing the tokens it will get this right. Yet the final answer is always wrong.
> isn't HN more like professional news/discussion place?
I see enough racist and misogynist comments here to know that isn't true. And that's not even considering the low-knowledge comments offered up as expertise.
I long for the days of a Slashdot where you could filter out anyone with a UID greater than 200K or so, and it'd be nothing but 20yr experts in IT dropping rugged after rugged of tremendously insightful analysis. (Granted there was also plenty of GNAA frist psot stuff.)
>I long for the days of a Slashdot where you could filter out anyone with a UID greater than 200K or so, and it'd be nothing but 20yr experts in IT dropping rugged after rugged of tremendously insightful analysis.
If you had a similar filter here it'd likely have the the opposite effect.
The lack of subreddits is a big difference because it inhibits users coagulating into subgroups. Reddit also allows people to be banned from subreddits by subreddit owners/mods which leads to groupthink more.
HN is definitely social media, even if it isn't explicitly labeled as such. Ostensibly Instagram is just a photo sharing site, but we all know it is social media.
Users? Obviously xorg devs want to work on something that isn't ancient and crufty. But users want something that actually works and it has taken almost 2 decades to get to that point.
Actually I still have more issues on Wayland than X. Although it is at least starting to swing in the other direction - e.g. KDE's screen recording feature doesn't work on X. The button's still there but if you click it nothing happens.
Most users have no idea what is behind. They don't want X or anything X related, they want things to work. Most of the things worked before 2020, including legacy things through xwayland. Now all things work, except maybe remote apps through ssh ootb, but for this you can either use RDP or Waypipe.
The only thing maybe worth discussing is video acceleration. this aside, I have been using gnome on Wayland for years and no problems what-so-ever. I really don't know what the fuss is about.
I would prefer that people start moving this legacy nonsense behind and finally start accepting new and better things and focusing on things that have future. Same thing happened with systemd, it improves massively everything Linux, yet some people just want their services started with scripts.
What problems do you have when things don't work for you on Wayland?
* Dell latitude with old Intel 8gen CPU, it works fine (Linux kernel causes problems with PSR, but this has nothing to do with Wayland and disabling it fixes the problem, same thing with cstates)
* Dell latitude with 10gen CPU, works fine.
* Huawei d15 with Ryzen 3000 Apu, works fine.
ok. for accessibility it's fair enough as a critique.
I don't use it so can't say. As far as I can tell this hasn't been in focus at all. but most of this is on the toolkit side, not Wayland (even though here one thing is mentioned as Wayland specific, just briefly went through the post)
Does it matter? Your claim is that everything works, and I am here to tell you that I am a real person running real machines that do not work. Unless you're planning to fix the particular bugs and missing features that I'm hitting I don't see where the specifics actually matter. (Anyways, the first machine is a https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T490 with Intel graphics; this appears to work but is less stable than Xorg. The second machine is a https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Lenovo_IdeaPad_Flex_3_Chr... that doesn't run Wayland at all, which I grant is bizarre since the stock ChromeOS uses Wayland. You are welcome to point out that this is more than a little off the beaten path, at which point I will of course point out that Xorg somehow handles it just fine.)
> but most of this is on the toolkit side, not Wayland (even though here one thing is mentioned as Wayland specific, just briefly went through the post)
It varies; a11y isn't a single thing. Deep application integration to allow eg. screen readers to work well probably needs toolkit integration. But there are also things like dwell click, which is really helpful when my RSI is flaring up. In X, I just run `mousetweaks --dwell` and it works, and it works in any window manager or desktop environment, with absolutely no help needed from toolkits or applications. In Wayland, it's sometimes available on a per-compositor basis, which I would describe as purely inferior. On which note, observe that you've linked a blog post about a prototype for GNOME. They note that they're open to working with other desktop environments, but 1. that means it doesn't exist as of that blog post, and 2. I've seen how GNOME operates over the years; I fully expect portability to be a very distant second priority, and whatever they export will be an attempt to force everyone else to do everything the way GNOME does, which will go poorly. I have no interest in ever going back to GNOME, so the actual takeaway, AFAICT, is that the a11y situation on Wayland is bad and will remain bad for the foreseeable future.
if this is so, I can admit I'm wrong. so not everything works for everyone.
For myself and members of my family, I can say that absolutely everything works on gnome. And I have several machines, spread over several cpu and gpu generations, and different form factors that confirm this. not only those 3 laptops I mentioned.
Could it be that since you are not using gnome that you are hitting those problems? My experience is exclusively gnome, so maybe this is it?
a11y aside of course... given that this was not really finished. or seriously worked on.
It certainly could be GNOME vs not-GNOME. That doesn't really help me, either way, but it's not hard to imagine that different compositors have entirely different quality levels.
if you ever come into a position that you could try or would like to try gnome, I would encourage you to do it. maybe you could eliminate that bad opinion of Wayland (or confirm it)...
yes gnome has a vision of how the desktop should look like and strong behavior of "my way or the highway", but maybe you get surprised how well it works. especially on fedora.
I assumed wrongly other people (you mostly) use gnome by default, which obviously is not the case. in that case I could see it as a problem since not everyone has red hat resources for desktop development.
HiDPI scaling (not even fractional, 2x aka 200%), for some apps like OnlyOffice, VMWare Workstation, but not only, on Ubuntu 24.04. Had to switch back to X.
You can blame the apps all you want, but it's a fact of life, and Wayland has been around for 18 years.
I don't know how you can read about the many experiences people have with Wayland not working - even now, let alone 2020 - and conclude that "all things work".
I think we are finally at the point where you can say most things work and it's silly to go back to X11, but even so Wayland has clearly been a huge failure.
If it is about chat, do we actually need Firefox adapted when you can go to gemini.google.com or some other one and write what you want there? Optionality is ensured since you actively have to go there.
(IIRC her salary increased something like 10 folds over the past 15 years or so)
Edit: It has jumped from $490k[1] to $6.25M[2] from 2009 to 2024.
Edit 2: by looking the figures up, I learned that she's gone at last, good riddance (though I highly doubt her successor is going to take a 12-fold pay cut)
different point of view: tab grouping took 20+y to develop (since opera had it in 2000s).
in 2026 firefox should have: - fast ui - fast js - fast rendering - hw acceleration for video - same look and feel on all platforms - faster adblocker
just the basics, no? didn't add more advanced features here.
and let's see what is actually here: - UI rendered via HTML/xul. an abomination. a slow abomination at that. right clicking something can show you stagers of rendering of a menu. - check any Js benchmarks, you will see how FF stands - rendering,... there was a talk in one of the conferences explaining timing requests and time-to-picture. this may be blamed on the standards, but chrome does it better - video hw acceleration on Linux? is this actually working? and I don't mean 3/100 relevant codecs - same look and feel - done - AdBlock is the only advantage you have over other platforms. it would make sense to implement this in the browser and not rely on Js and extensions
it's sad and funny that people with only a couple million are going to soon catch up to Mozilla and make it obsolete, by building a Bowser engine, not only a shell around blink/WebKit.